My friend Tyler, who plays drums in a band with me, took a cab with me at about 4am one morning to catch a really early flight back home to Atlanta. Our cab driver was a black man from the Bahamas. An earthquake had just devastated Haiti and in our casual conversation we brought it up. He proceeded to tell us that islanders were used to hurricanes but not really earthquakes and he thought it was strange. At one point Tyler mentioned what a bonehead he thought Pat Robertson was for saying that God caused the earthquake to punish Haiti for something that they supposedly did over a hundred years ago.
The driver then stated that he agreed with Pat Robertson and that he had always admired him for having the courage to speak his mind. Tyler and I were in shock. A black cab driver from the Islands siding with Pat Robertson? He said that Haitians did worship the devil back then, and that God was in fact punishing them. I was wide awake all of a sudden. The next exchange went something like this.
Me: Was New Orleans was punished by God too?
Him: Absolutely.
Me: Then explain to me why the strip clubs and whore houses in the French Quarter were spared and so many churches in New Orleans were destroyed.
Him: Many times God kills non-believers in the Bible. I think we should do the same. We should go to Afghanistan and offer them Christianity and whoever doesn't accept Christ should be immediately executed. I'm tired of the US wasting so much time and energy on it.
Me: Where did Jesus say that??? He said "Thou shalt not kill" and "Forgive your enemies"!
Him: The bible says you shall not shed "innocent blood".
Me: Jesus said no one is innocent. Remember "He who is without sin cast the first stone."?
Him: You are a good debater.
Me: I'm just trying to figure out what Bible you're reading! I thought you said you followed Jesus for Christ's sake!
Isn't it ironic that Jesus' own words are the strongest argument against so many Christian's beliefs? I guess I really need to cut Bill Maher and Christopher Hitchens some slack, as much as I am loathe to.
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Very scary stuff, and heartbreaking...
ReplyDeleteob says:
ReplyDelete"I'm just trying to figure out what Bible you're reading! I thought you said you followed Jesus for Christ's sake!"
Our Bible tells us that God is Just. He is Love and He is Just. We live in postmodern times. It is hard to see God as a judge but because there is good and evil, God cannot turn away and must judge. Heschel describes God's anger as "righteous indignation." When we look at the horrors happening at this very moment in our world (Israel's defamation, the oil spill that ravages our gulf states, greed, lust, and lies), God's anger is justified but it's brief, and His love endures forever.
I don't have a problem seeing God as a judge, I have a problem with seeing Pat Robertson or our Bahamian cab driver as a judge. How can any of us discern what is God's judgement and what is a random act of nature? Again, if Katrina was God's judgement the same as Haiti then why were all the whore houses in the French Quarter preserved while many churches were wiped out?
ReplyDeleteob said -
ReplyDelete"I have a problem with seeing Pat Robertson or our Bahamian cab driver as a judge."
I do too. The enormity of the on-going suffering in Haiti and the gulf states after Katrina makes pronouncements of G-d's judgment seem callous. But I also see in these men my own tendency to judge others whose thoughts differ from my own AND I recognize they're expressing an awareness of evil and struggling against it (something not so foreign to me). Some men do acts of evil - but these men just misspoke. How I see others and how I treat them is an index of *my* love of G-d. I'll try to leave the judging to G-d. Our true work on earth is to adore G-d - to ponder and wonder . .
So . . dear G-d please help us to see the good in others.
"For if you love those who love you, what reward have you? Do not even the tax-gatherers do the same? "And if you greet your brothers only, what do you do more than others? Do not even the Gentiles do the same?"
ob asks -
"Again, if Katrina was God's judgement the same as Haiti then why were all the whore houses in the French Quarter preserved while many churches were wiped out?"
Let me preface by saying truthfully - I don't know . . it would probably terrify me if I did. ( i'm not G-d and i don't want to be : )
So since I'm guessing here . . my guess is because "judgment begins in the household of G-d". On a personal level - I want G-d to judge me first because I desire G-d's correction.. but I'm loathe to argue this as our beautiful gulf is awash with oil and no end is in sight.. Each day brings more and more evidence of death and desolation and still the oil flows. The sadness over such an immense loss is just beginning.. If this is G-d's judgment then "G-d forgive us and help us.." We are destroying the beautiful balance of life in our world . .
"For it is time for judgment to begin with the household of G-d; and if it begins with us first, what will be the outcome for those who do not obey the gospel of G-d?"
I agree with you Sursum that the cab driver misspoke but not Pat Robertson. Robertson is a religious leader with millions of followers worldwide whose words influence not only their thoughts but potentially their actions. When Robertson says that we should assassinate a leader of a country that has never committed an act of military aggression against us then I have to wonder how he squares that with forgiving your enemies. He is the one claiming to follow Jesus and yet he contradicts Jesus commandments.
ReplyDeleteWhen you say, "How I see others and how I treat them is an index of *my* love of G-d. I'll try to leave the judging to G-d. Our true work on earth is to adore G-d - to ponder and wonder . . " I assume that you are saying that I should try to not Judge Mr. Robertson and the cab driver. I think that that exact same quote would be better directed at Mr. Robertson and the cab driver. I am not advocating that they should be killed, I'm just pointing out when they totally contradict Jesus' teachings.
When you say that, ""judgment begins in the household of G-d"." what do you mean? Why would the presumably innocent be punished and not the clearly guilty. I can't help but see a major conflict between the concept of grace and what you're talking about which seems to imply that the followers of Jesus receive punishment and all the grace goes to the seedy element of the French Quarter.
Lastly, I thought the oil disaster in the gulf was man's doing, not God's. God didn't build a gigantic oil rig out there. If we hadn't built the rig there would be no oil spilling out everywhere. Its seems to me that the destruction is not a result of God's judgment but our own selfishness and folly once again.
Sorry if I am misinterpreting or misunderstanding your statements.
ob says -
ReplyDelete"When you say, "How I see others and how I treat them is an index of *my* love of G-d. I'll try to leave the judging to G-d. Our true work on earth is to adore G-d - to ponder and wonder . . " I assume that you are saying that I should try to not Judge Mr. Robertson and the cab driver. I think that that exact same quote would be better directed at Mr. Robertson and the cab driver."
I am sharing with you my own understanding and approach to others who may offend or disagree with me. I'm not offering advice - but my thoughts equally free for anyone (including you, PR, the cab driver, or the readers of this blog) to consider . . : )
I understand your complaints against PR - they are valid. You and I only differ in our conclusions. I give him a pass - you don't. I am tempered by my life experiences. In the mid 90s during the UN embargo of goods entering Haiti - I became involved in sending food and medicine to Gonaives. My work with HIV/AIDS here in FL had led me to develop ties to Haitian missions. Many of my patients had contracting HIV in Haiti and it was a natural and needed outreach. When I had trouble getting the supplies to Gonaives - it was PR's Operation Blessing who were already well-established in Haiti that helped. They are still doing good work there - it just doesn't make the news like PR's soundbites ..
"Christian Charity Operation Blessing made a big splash in New Orleans after a Hurricane Katrina by stocking stagnant swimming pools with gambusia fish, a tiny minnow that gobbles up mosquito larva. Now the group is bringing the fish to Haiti to help prevent disease there."
http://religion.blogs.cnn.com/2010/05/28/mosquito-fish/
Also - I am from the South and I've been listening to people misspeak and misspeaking all my life. Its a regional malaise. Ted Turner (another southerner like PR who often speaks out of his tuchus) recently commented about the gulf crisis: "I'm just wondering if God is telling us He doesn't want us to drill offshore.." uh Ted.. shouldn't He have told us before the spill ?? But of course PR's verbal mishaps are of greater consequence because he represents himself as a Christian leader. I'm not saying G-d won't judge - I'm saying I understand and choose to find the good and forgive . .
ob asks -
"When you say that, ""judgment begins in the household of G-d"." what do you mean? Why would the presumably innocent be punished and not the clearly guilty. I can't help but see a major conflict between the concept of grace and what you're talking about which seems to imply that the followers of Jesus receive punishment and all the grace goes to the seedy element of the French Quarter."
When Peter says "judgment begins in the household of G-d" - he is preparing believers for suffering. I know that suffering comes in this life - but I don't know why and can only remind you:
"Further along we'll know more about it. Further along we'll understand why. Cheer up my brother - live in the sunshine. We'll understand it all by and by.."
It comforts me to know we are not the first believers to struggle with these seemingly unfair inconsistencies.
Soul Stirrers - WONDERFUL/FARTHER ALONG
go to 2:30 -
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ujhDAra-eKo
(wow-i'm taking up too much html)
ReplyDeleteob says -
"I thought the oil disaster in the gulf was man's doing, not God's. God didn't build a gigantic oil rig out there. If we hadn't built the rig there would be no oil spilling out everywhere. Its seems to me that the destruction is not a result of God's judgment but our own selfishness and folly once again."
Valerie made a valid point when she said - "because there is good and evil, God cannot turn away and must judge." Yes - we built the oil rig in the gulf. We risked the disaster that is now on us because we lust for oil. Oil is needed in our society to feed our pursuit of comfort and our laziness. Greed fuels the search for oil and brings with it graft, corruption, and waste. We have sown the wind and will reap the whirlwind. Is it our own selfishness or is it sin? For me - the essence of sin is selfishness. How can we understand the concept of grace if we don't first understand our sin?
I'm sorry if I sound harsh. I'm still processing the enormity of the loss and sharing with you my own struggle to define good and evil - and realize my role in both.
You are kind and present your thoughts logically. Thanks for chatting with me and best wishes. : )
To Sursum,
ReplyDeletelet me be absolutely clear when I say that it is not my job to give Pat Robertson or anyone else a pass, or not. I like to ask questions. Questions like doesn't a professed Christian advocating assassinating someone contradict Jesus' teaching? In my belief system God is the one who will give them a pass, or not. As far as the good that Pat Robertson has done in Haiti and elsewhere, I think it is one of the most positive features of Christianity and Judaism that a response to the needy and/or oppressed is built into the religion. I would never say that the good that his organizations do counts for nothing. But where did he read "thou shalt assassinate thy neighbor" in the New Testament? I wish that PR would take your advice and "try to find the good and forgive".
I agree with you in your interpretation of Peter's statement. We certainly will all suffer in this life and I think we are wise to accept that. I don't really struggle with the "inconsistency" though because I don't believe that everything bad that happens is a punishment from God. I believe that sometimes bad things just happen randomly to good people. Again, the Bible says this pretty explicitly in Ecclesiastes 9:11-12:"
I have seen something else under the sun: The race is not to the swift or the battle to the strong, nor does food come to the wise or wealth to the brilliant or favor to the learned; but time and chance happen to them all. Moreover, no man knows when his hour will come: As fish are caught in a cruel net, or birds are taken in a snare, so men are trapped by evil times that fall unexpectedly upon them."
I agree with you that selfishness is the essence of sin. I think that the oil spill is a classic example of reaping what you sow. Say I tell my child that if they stick their hand in the fire its going to get burned. Say they then do exactly that and their hand in fact gets burned. Is the burnt hand my punishment or them merely reaping what they sowed? I think a lot of things that we think of as "punishments from God" are just a result of this divine law that God set up. God doesn't have to punish us, the law of reaping and sowing takes care of that.
Also, please don't think you are taking up too much space here. This blog is for discussion. Its whole purpose is for us to learn from and challenge each other. Thank you very much for investing your time in it.
Thank you for the beautiful verses from Ecclesiastes.
ReplyDeleteRegarding PR and his "foot-in-the-mouth" broadcasting technique:
I Timothy 3:7 (Contemporary English Version)
(Church officials) "...they be well-respected by people who are not followers. Then they won't be trapped and disgraced by the devil."
Christian leaders are held to a higher level of accountability (as is any leader). When a leader fails, the cause fails.
More than ever, we need our leaders to display high moral values. In the arena of Tel-evangelism, it seems crass to suggest that anyone be assassinated (reminds one of Caiaphas the high priest at Jesus' crucifixion).
I enjoy engaging in this thread and hope that we all grow from the exploration.
Ecclesiastes 12:13 & 14 (NASB)
"The conclusion, when all has been heard, is fear God and keep His commandments, because this applies to every person. For God will bring every act to judgement, everything which is hidden, whether it is good or evil."
I realized when I reread my last posts that it might seem like I'm saying that I don't believe that God ever judges anything. I actually believe that God continuously "judges" all things. I just think there are some who spend too much time trying to "attribute God's judgment" to modern events. And it seems like they don't believe that anything random ever happens, like is possible with Katrina and Haiti, or that there is cause and effect as in the case of the oil spill. They maintain this position even though the Bibles attests to both randomness and cause and effect. In the New Testament (Luke 13) Jesus tells these people that though this tower in Siloam fell on and killed some Galileans that it was not because they were more guilty than the rest.
ReplyDeletePersonally I don't have a problem seeing God as a judge because I think that God is Love so I can rest easy knowing that that judgement will surpass mere fairness. The idea of grace helps me understand why and accept that the sun shines, and the rain falls on good and evil alike. While we are here on earth it doesn't seem fair no matter which angle you take, but we believers still trust in God.
I think most of this preoccupation comes from being so literal about the images in the Bibles. However I believe many of those in that school are sincere in their desire to be faithful. Christians got the belief that God is totally other than us and consequently impossible to describe with words from the Hebrews. It was, and is still to some, even forbidden to say or spell God's name. Yet we can feel God's presence. We're motivated to communicate it through various means; communal and private acts of kindness, hoping, praying, music, etc. But the most immediate form we use is words. Words are more complicated than acts of kindness though because words sometimes take a poetic form. But we have to use poetry and metaphors to represent spiritual ideas and truths. We're dealing with Love, hate, selflessness, selfishness, sin, sacrifice, things for which there are no mathematical equations. Concepts like grace appear totally contrary to logic. But when we look at God as a parent then grace makes more sense because we extend it to our children.
The Rabbi's and sages constantly disagreed on interpretations of almost every verse in the Tanakh. Academies disagreed on which verses were to be taken literally or not. This same debate between focusing on God as predominantly a harsh Katrina, earthquake style judge vs. a God of grace was being had by Hillel and Shammai when Jesus was a little boy. You can see this in the Talmud. They respectfully opposed one another with the aim of causing the students on both sides to think and grow. I think that is healthy. So much of of this stuff goes under the heading of "That which we cannot prove while we are still here." Our actions, good deeds, mitzvot, are what we can prove. I believe God/Love knows our true intention when we commit these acts. I'll help Pat Robertson do good deeds. Only God can judge his intention. And mine.
"Christians got the belief that God is totally other than us and consequently impossible to describe with words from the Hebrews. It was, and is still to some, even forbidden to say or spell God's name. Yet we can feel God's presence."
ReplyDeleteokay okay . . I know this thread has run into a cul de sac - so I'm not trying to further the topic: I'm only sharing something I like to ponder over : )
The above sentences from the last post remind me that opposites meet in Yeshua. He is the beginning and end, the first and last, the highest and lowest, the caused and cause. He is holy (set apart) and yet closer to you than your next breath.
Once again - it can't be proven logically or mathematically. So how can that be ??
from Phillipians:
"Who, though He was in the form of G-d, did not count equality with G-d a thing to be grasped, but made Himself nothing, taking the form of a Servant, being born in the likeness of men. And being found in human form, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross."
(for me) G-d is not religion. He is relationship - so I am often thinking about Him (His nature, His attributes, His purposes) . .